Thread for translation of cross-talk in Greek between Amethystos and Duffy

Amethystos posted that he wasn't sure about whether Kaldaras is in the group of the best of the best.

Duffy posted back:

2) Δεν θα μιλήσω για τα 1000 τόσα τραγούδια που έγραψε, αλλά και μόνο για την "Μικρά Ασία" & τον "Βυζαντινό εσπερινό" θα έπρεπε να είναι (και είναι) στο Πάνθεον.

Basically, Duffy said:

Based just on the albums "Μικρά Ασία" and "Βυζαντινό εσπερινό" alone, Kaldaras deserves to be (and is) in the Pantheon.

(In other words, in the house of the "composer-gods" with the other "composer-gods".)

Συγχαρητήρια!
Μάλλον θα πρέπει να μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά μαζί σου.

I'm not sure I agree that it's better you should speak more Greek to me ... not yet anyway. I have not yet acquainted myself with the way modern and Attic differ in important ways. So most of the time, I would be going off on "wild goose chases".

The other thing is that idiomatic use of prepositions by ANY language always throws people off.

For example, I had a hard time with μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά until I realized that in Greek, the idiom is "speak with Greek" ... in English it would be "speak IN Greek" or just "speak Greek".

After Amethystos posted about Kaldaras stealing a tune, Duffy responded with this:

Αν κάτι μ' ενοχλούσε στον Καλδάρα, αυτό ήταν το "ινδικότροπο" στύλ που επέβαλε σχεδόν, μαζί με τον Καζαντζίδη και κάνα δυό άλλους. Το ήξερα ότι τα έκλεβε, ήταν από παλιά γνωστό...Αλλά δεν μπορώ να πω, ότι δεν είναι και ανάμεσα στους μεγάλους, μόνο για αυτόν τον λόγο.

The second part is easy:

"I know the case of theft - it has been known for a long time. But I can not say that he is not among the great solely for this reason."

The first part is a little more difficult - I THINK it means:

"If there's something disturbing about the Kaldaras song, it's actually the "indikotropo" style, which he used on some songs by Kazantzidis and a couple of others."

In other words, Duffy thinks the style of the song is worse than the fact that the tune was stolen.

But I'm not sure about this translation.

So, Duffy, if this translation of the first part is not correct - try rewording this a different way

Αν κάτι μ' ενοχλούσε στον Καλδάρα, αυτό ήταν το "ινδικότροπο" στύλ που επέβαλε σχεδόν, μαζί με τον Καζαντζίδη και κάνα δυό άλλους

and I'll try to do better.

Translation is :

"If there's something disturbing about the Kaldaras, it's actually the "Indian -like" style he was trying to "establish" along with Kazantzidis and a couple of others."

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

For example, I had a hard time with μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά until I realized that in Greek, the idiom is "speak with Greek" ... in English it would be "speak IN Greek" or just "speak Greek".

Feel sorry to correct you but there's no "speek with greek".

Phrase is "speak Greek" "μιλάμε Ελληνικά" or "speak TO THE Greek" -> "μιλάμε στα Ελληνικά"

Amethystos -

Thanks for correcting my attempt at a translation to:

"If there's something disturbing about the Kaldaras, it's actually the "Indian -like" style he was trying to "establish" along with Kazantzidis and a couple of others."

Amethystos - you wrote

************************************************** **
Feel sorry to correct you but there's no "speek with greek".

Phrase is "speak Greek" "μιλάμε Ελληνικά" or "speak TO THE Greek" -> "μιλάμε στα Ελληνικά"
************************************************** ******************************
Then what is the "force" (meaning and grammatical function) of "με" in

"μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά"

I thought "με" = "with".

OHHHHHH - wait a second - I think maybe I see .... does "με" go with "σου" in

μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά μαζί σου

In other words - is it basically

"speak more Greek (μαζί, "together") WITH YOU"

If so, then why would Duffy place "με" right after " μιλάμε" rather than right before "σου"?

I know that Greek is a "free word order" language where you can (in many or most cases) vary the order of words and still have the same meaning - so is Duffy's choice of where to put the "με" actually a personal "stylistic" decision?

Would the sentence sound odd to a native Greek speaker if "με" were right before "σου" ?

Originally Posted by David Halitsky

Amethystos - you wrote

************************************************** **
Feel sorry to correct you but there's no "speek with greek".

Phrase is "speak Greek" "μιλάμε Ελληνικά" or "speak TO THE Greek" -> "μιλάμε στα Ελληνικά"
************************************************** ******************************
Then what is the "force" (meaning and grammatical function) of "με" in

"μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά"

I thought "με" = "with".

OHHHHHH - wait a second - I think maybe I see .... does "με" go with "σου" in

μιλάμε με περισσότερα ελληνικά μαζί σου

In other words - is it basically

"speak more Greek (μαζί, "together") WITH YOU"

If so, then why would Duffy place "με" right after " μιλάμε" rather than right before "σου"?

I know that Greek is a "free word order" language where you can (in many or most cases) vary the order of words and still have the same meaning - so is Duffy's choice of where to put the "με" actually a personal "stylistic" decision?

Would the sentence sound odd to a native Greek speaker if "με" were right before "σου" ?

Please try not to mix phrases in your mind, Duffy wrote a complicated phrase where "με" goes with "περισσότερα".

The original phrase should have been
Θα πρέπει να μιλάμε χρησιμοποιώντας περισσοτερα Ελληνικά. -> We'd better talk with the use of more Greek
(Being far from any syntax rule in English cause I tried to insert "with" in sentence; so "by using more " is being replaced by "with the use of more" -> with more)
You can see that this "με" is being used to replace a participle.

I wish I was a teacher to guide you where to read these rules. (Even if I'm not for reading books but for continuous practicing)

You wrote:

"I wish I was a teacher"

But you ARE a teacher, Kύρ Amethystos, and I am very proud to have you as mine, at least "here and there" in these occasional conversations.

I understand completely what you mean about the "with" being present in the sentence because there's an IMPLIED participle χρησιμοποιώντας .

Such participial phrases with "prepositional" meaning were HUGE in both Classical Greek and Latin. Latin had the "ablative" case, which Classical Greek did NOT have, and therefore, Latin grammarians would characterize Duffy's IMPLIED construction "with + participle" as an "ablative of means":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_%28Latin%29

But since Classical Greek didn't have the ablative, it used a "dative of means" or "dative of instrument":

Dativus instrumenti: The dativus instrumenti, or the 'dative of instrument,' is when the dative is used to denote an instrument or means of a certain action (or, more accurately, as the instrumental case). For example:
"με κτείνει δόλῳ." (Homer, Odyssey 9.407)
"He kills me with a bait (i.e., by means of a bait)."

(The above is taken from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case)

So, there's really no "grammatical rule" to be learned here - it's more a case of learning when words can be dropped from a sentence because they are "implied". (By "implied", I mean that a native speaker of Greek would immediately understand what words are "missing", without even being conscious of the fact that words are missing.) And as you said, learning when and where words can be dropped cannot be learned from a book, it can only be learned from practice - continuously listening to native speakers and incorporating their usages into one's own speech, then waiting to see if people laugh at what you've just said.

P.S. Some grammarians might call Duffy's construction a "dative of manner", because our native language (or the one we generally speak) is our "manner of speaking". But I prefer to think of Duffy's construction as a "dative of means", because if you think about it, we cannot speak at all unless we speak in some language. So, a language is what we use when we want to speak .... and therefore, "dative of means" seems to me to be more appropriate ... (This is one of the reasons why "regular" people get annoyed at grammarians - who really CARES whether we classify it as a "dative of manner" or "dative of means"?)